New install

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Beddo88
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New install

Post by Beddo88 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:29 pm

Firstly, should point out i am quite the ICE noob. I'm trying to learn! :P Basically im after some advice on speaker types/ layout. You guys have helped out before.. hopefully you can be just as helpful this time! :)

I like my bass... rather into d & b, some dubstep, but also enjoy house with some rock music etc. Generally its bassy genres i go for.

Currently im looking at:

Sub / amp - in boot, possibly with amp sat in spare wheel well?

Set of components up front

Considering keeping the rear 6x4s

So.. got a few questions.
Are the components (especially if installed in door cards) likely to supply enough bass to cover the mid-frequencies? Ie. between the sub and the mid range.
Is it worth keeping the 6x4s? they'll be in the rear, and obviously wont supply sound as clearly as the components up front. Will they be affected by the sub etc?
With components, do they need a seperate amp? How do you install them?

Think thats my basic questions at the moment.. currently i only have the sub, still looking for a er.. cheap amp to power it. Sorry for the amount of writing! Cheers for reading :)

Dan


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Dutch GT
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Re: New install

Post by Dutch GT » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:12 am

I would forget the rears. It's only beneficial for rear passengers and otherwise just messes with the staging. I'd spend that money on cable and leads.

In my (non professional) experience, the best way is exactly what you're planning. Decent components up front, ideally powered by a reasonable amp, and a sub/amp. I have tried a number of positions for the components, and found the best way is to keep both woofer and tweeter down in the foot well (if you can build pods) or door corners, pointing at you as much as possible. My Golf (MK4) has them in the standard door position with just the tweeters angled at me on home made brackets and they sound great. The staging is on the dash, surprising considering where the sound is coming from, but it is far better than I expected (also recommended on a forum) and far better than the dash or door mirror cover positions. The further away from your ears they are, the better!

I have Focal components (10 years old from my old Mk2 Golf), Rockford Punch Sub (even older), and a Genesis 4 channel Amp off eBay 2nd hand, sounds better than my old Rockford did, great amps. Well worth the investment considering how long they have lasted.

The mid bass is ok, better builds may help, but I heard most speakers for cars are not designed for sealed boxes anyway. Your biggest problem is the size of door pods in the 'rocco. Might have to build some? I just fitted a set of cheap Alpine 6x4 in our 'rocco, which sound fine... until you start the engine and hit the road, when they really miss the bass. They are running off the head unit amp (also an old old Alpine).

One more thing I noticed. For mid range punch, nothing ever matched a pair of 6 x 9 infinity kappas I had in my mini many years ago. They were bolted straight to the metal shelf at the back (so not great for staging!) and I think the solid surface helps as much as anything. Far better than a floppy door card. I think this is why the Mk4 golf is better than the Mk2, as the speakers bolt to the door metal.

Anyway, sorry for waffling on :wakey: & good luck



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Mr Funk
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Re: New install

Post by Mr Funk » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:25 am

Components are definitely the way forwards but can be a bugger go fit. I've ended kidding the door cards to accommodate them.


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fonzooorooo
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Re: New install

Post by fonzooorooo » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:06 pm

A couple of moments on :ebay: looking at 6x4 specs shows 50 Hz or 80Hz -3dB points depending on brand. (regarding your rears)
've got JBLs in front and rear, and am runnning 12 dB/8ve high pass filters set at over 100 Hz (can't remember frequency without looking) I've recently been playing with a rockford fosgate 12" in a properly designed box. Huge, ridculously low bass, but a nightmare to cross over to the 6x4"s... The best sound involves running a high bandwidth boost centred at 200Hz. Snag is that you can tell the 6x4"s are working too hard then! ...
It's got me wondering about whether the 6x4"s really are designed for effectively free-air mounting... if not, the suspension of the driver's insufficient for the low frequency response that we're both looking for from them. Only 2 ways round that issue: 1 is to use different drivers, the other's to build boxes... Snag with boxes is that there aren't enough specs given by the manufacturers.
There' certainly a lot to be said for components in the front... simply for the increase in cone area meaning that a shorter "travl" is needed in the driver for the same air displacement. If I didn't care about it looking "factory", I'd be going for 6 1/2", then aiming to get rid of the peak at 200Hz... should be possible then.

can. worms. [crack]



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Dutch GT
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Re: New install

Post by Dutch GT » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:26 pm

fonzooorooo wrote:
can. worms. [crack]
Ha, thats the biggest problem, I use the box that came with the sub, tried changing the dimension (volume) but couldn't decide if the changes were better or worse. I love how it sounds now so not going to mess. I don't want to start with crossovers etc!

I do have a project mk2 16v that I have bought genesis amps for, and I'm wondering about those mid bass cones that have an adjustable tweeter in the middle. They may be the best compromise/solution to keeping factory look, and the Focal ones must be at least half decent. Think they had two on offer, one around £100 and one quite a bit more! Anyone tried these kind of speaker?



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Mr Funk
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Re: New install

Post by Mr Funk » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:16 pm

Oddly I found that making a bin and sticking the 10" in the footwell worked a treat. Bit surprised if I'm perfectly honest.
I've been toying with the idea of ditching the components jut because I'm sick to the back teeth of trying to perfect the doorcards with them. I'd go for a top 6x4 at the front (Alpine) then some nice mids in the rear door cards. Slightly easier for me as my rear cards are already modified to be smooth and there's no rear interior


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Beddo88
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Re: New install

Post by Beddo88 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:26 pm

Ok, so i like the sound of the components route, altho from the sounds of it they are best located in a similar position to where the current 6x4s sit? So.. say the mid-range speaker there (6 1/2" if it'll fit?) and the tweeters sat either at the top of the door or near the main speaker (ie current position?) Also its worth getting a seperate amp for them? Are the kits worth looking into? (provided its decent quality/second hand.. :P)

Ideally i'd like to blend the sub nicely into the components, as alot of my music thrives around the er.. lower ranges. Dont really want something that feels like its jumping around the place. From the sounds of this i'm going to have to engineer some sort of enclosure for the door or at least modify the doorcards for them to fit? Any suggestions Monsiour Funk?


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Dutch GT
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Re: New install

Post by Dutch GT » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:07 pm

I wouldn't be too concerned about the sub working in with the components. I don't have any fancy trickery, just the standard crossovers supplied with the focals. They do their job fine, wether it's Bowie or LTJ Bukem. I have a varied taste and couldn't put up with bad sounds.
I would be worried about fitting the components... Erm... Mr Funk?



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Mr Funk
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Re: New install

Post by Mr Funk » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:28 pm

It's a bit ofa whore if I'm perfectly honest and really boils down to whether you've got winders or leccy switches as a normal six inch woofer will catch the winders unless you recess it. There's a bit about it on my build thread and I've recently done a bit more to it with the intention of working with a local firm to try and find a solution as it's doing my head in.
Tweeters however are much easier. Mine came with collers which allow them to swivel a bit to face me but theyre recessed into the top of the dash. Pretty easy to open the hole then feed the wires through the back


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fonzooorooo
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Re: New install

Post by fonzooorooo » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:59 am

This topic's got me thinking, and getting all armchair-pro-active...
Just sent this to JBL:

"subject: GTO6428
I currently have 2 pairs of the above speakers fitted in my 1992 VW Scirocco. I'm finding them difficult to cross over to the subwoofer (everything independantly amplified, withappropriate hp/lp filters), and am wondering if they are truely designed for the effective "free air" mounting that the factory positions give. I can't help but think that a small enclosure would assist the suspension at low frequency, and wonder if you could supply me with any relevant data?"



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Beddo88
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Re: New install

Post by Beddo88 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:20 pm

Beer in hand i also got a bit proactive.. and a nice chap over on talkaudio suggested this vibe 4 channel amp. Slightly bigger budget than i'd planned, but at £100 its not really that much, and will supply me with both a decent power for the sub (bridged) and seperate outputs for the comps, with seperate adjustments within the amp for each set of speakers. Ie. comps and sub.

http://homeavdirect.co.uk/vibe-slick-a3 ... -amplifier

Kid in a candy shop.. :D Just have to find one someone doesnt want anymore! lol


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Junglist
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Re: New install

Post by Junglist » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:10 pm

I went on talk audio asking for the best set up with what I had. I've ended up with my amped sub (the set-up I already had - bridged 2-way amp) being fed low pass; pair of very nice sounding infinity reference 6x4s in the front receiving high pass (so pretty much just the tweeters working on them); some meaty high output 6x4s in the rear handling the midrange (power over quality for the "filler" sounds). The fronts are amped, the rears run off the head unit.

The head unit enables 3-way crossover so each speaker group is handling a single element of sound (in stereo of course). I get a really good clear sound with decent volume, but I am considering adding dash mounted tweeters. The head unit also allows time correction which delays the nearer speakers so they all seem the same distance from you. Makes the sound much more organised and not messy like most car stereos sound.


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Beddo88
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Re: New install

Post by Beddo88 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:10 pm

Sounds pretty good junglist. I dont really want to splash out on a new head unit though as i'm more than happy with the one i have, although i understand it could improve/ease the situation somewhat :P

Still like the idea of having the comps up front though, should certainly simplify the whole situation! Power it all off one amp, then theres less of that horrible wiring in business. *shudders*


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Junglist
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Re: New install

Post by Junglist » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:53 am

Yeah, comps would be better. Try to find them in 6x4 though. One amp can be better, but i prefer shorter speaker cables rather than shorter interconnect leads.. That's why i've got 2 amps - one screwed to the sub box, one in the passenger footwell under the mat. You might find dash or pillar mounted tweeters make a big difference. Some passive crossovers would help with seperation if you do.


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stu.gtx
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Re: New install

Post by stu.gtx » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:11 pm

I was a bit sick of messing around with tiny speakers in the fronts so bit the bullet and got some 5.25 components in the front doors. As Jim says - you'll be lucky to get 6.5's in there with out problems. I tried 6x9's which give a lot of bang for the buck but you end up with all the sound coming from the back of the car.

I've tried a few set-ups - probably with a few others thrown in between somewhere:
4x Std 6x4's ran of the head unit with an amped 10' sub (std speakers couldn't cope and turned to dust)
Std fronts with amped 6x9's on rear shelf + amped 10" sub (Sounded ok but a bit too bassy and all sound coming from behind)
4" rounds in the front, amped 6x9's on rear shalf + amped 10" sub (as above)
Amped 5.25 Components in front doors + 10" sub in the boot ( :yahoo: )

The last one is what I have now and although it's no competition set up it's more than adequate for me. A decent head unit will help matters so much. If you're going to buy speakers/amps/subs I'd say you're probably better off buying 2nd hand good stuff than new cheaper stuff.

Once you have the amps, subs etc try and spend a bit of time setting it all up. Go for sound quality over out and out noise. None of this turning the head unit volume up to 1/3 max power and the speakers distorting to turnip.

Enjoy your install. I miss the quality of my stereo when I'm driving my other car.


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